Clifford Walker

Clifford Walker Transcript
Interview by Mike Meyers, Jerry Hensen, Sonja
Date: August 13th, 2010
Time: 55:49
Also Present: Arlie Sommer

0:00:00.0

MIKE MEYERS: I’m Mike, today's date is the 13th.

CLIFFORD WALKER: I'm Clifford Walker, uhm, August 13th, yesterday was my birthday.

MEYERS: Happy birthday.

WALKER: Thank you.

SONJA: Happy Birthday.

WALKER: Thank you.

JERRY HENSEN: I'm Jerry Hensen, Today's August 13th.

ARLIE SOMMERS: And are your headphones still good? Loud enough? It’s hard for me to tell...Okay...so, Uhm, does anyone want to start? Sonya, do you want to start with some questions because you've done this before?

SONJA: What are you doing?

WALKER: Doing? What am I doing? I’m learning to listen to your voice, and understand you. So, if I repeat a question, you'll understand?

SONJA: Yeah.

WALKER: And the question again was....?

SONJA: What do you do?

WALKER: What do I do?

SONJA: Mhmm.

WALKER: Right now I'm workin’ on my uhm house. Tryin’ to paint it. And, uh, I serve on the governor's commission of black affairs. S those two things keep me busy.

0:01:41.0

SOMMERS: could you talk about what you do on that commission?

WALKER: Well, the Oregon commission on black affairs is a state commission, and I was appointed by the governor along with uhm, nine other people. And our charge is to monitor the affairs of black people in the state of Oregon. And the reason we are asked to monitor the affairs of black people is to make sure they are getting their fair share of services in the state. And that they are hopefully actively participating in government affairs. So we encourage black people specifically to get engaged in government. In Oregon, black people represent about two percent of the state population, which is a very small percent of the statewide population. But there are some disparities, with jobs, and then there are some policing issues that we're looking at. So we're learning how to be commissioners at the same time we are acting as commissioners because we don’t really have a handle for how to do our job. It’s a legislative mandate. Our legislators feel that the commission is a good thing and somebody needs to be responsible for paying attention to what’s going on with black people, so that’s what we do. Does that help? Good. Any other questions?

0:03:19.0

MEYERS: I have a question. So, you lived this neighborhood? You were born and raised in this neighborhood or what?

WALKER: That’s a good question because I was born in 1943, so this area of town...I don't even believe the Eliot neighborhood was designated as a neighborhood when I was growing up, however I attended a preschool that was a couple blocks from here, that was called blessed Martin Day Nursery.

MEYERS: Yeah

WALKER: Remember that?

MEYERS: Yes, I remember that.

WALKER: And I was born at ‘emanuel Hospital. So I’m familiar. I've always been in and out of this area-

MEYERS: Right.

WALKER: But my family residence is in an area called Humboldt neighborhood, which is just north of the Eliot neighborhood. But, uh...prior to neighborhoods being designated as Eliot or Humboldt or King, I attended a church that was called Bethel, A&E church, a family church. And it was located where the M’emorial Coliseum is today. So I've always been in and around the neighborhood...So I hope that's not too misleading-

MEYERS: No, no.

WALKER: As to my relationship to the area. Okay.

0:05:06.2

MEYERS: I have another question: you was born and raised in this neighborhood...what have you seen that the neighborhood done so far?

WALKER: That’s a good question. What has the neighborhood done so far? It's changing. I think it was very depressed for many years, in terms of restoration...But I can see evidence today that there's a big interest in the neighborhood...a lotta rebuilding and a lot of money coming in restorations...a lotta new businesses. Which is exciting. But also as a child, I can remember looking out the car window, and it seem like it was a pretty robust community in the forties.

MEYERS: That's cool.

0:06:05.9

SOMMERS: Could you describe what it was like and what-

WALKER: Well, in a child's mind, I don't know how to describe it. It was busy, I just saw people uh....in the 50s uh and I guess in the 60s I think I was much more aware of the concentration of the black population, I would saw this was a black area.

MEYERS: Right-

WALKER: A black business area...and Williams Avenue was affectionately called 'the st’em.’

MEYERS: The St’em...?

WALKER: The St’em....I guess maybe because maybe like the....the st’em of activity. It was uh-

MEYERS: Yeah.

WALKER: A major part...on Sunday’s afternoons I remember people would drive up Williams avenue and come back, probably go...oh, down to Broadway. Maybe go up to Shaver. Back and forth, just to look at people. Stroll on the street. Show off their cars and their Easter outfits and things like that. I mean that was an activity.

MEYERS: Cruisin' down Williams?

WALKER: Cruisin'. Yeah, you understand.

MEYERS: Yeah.

WALKER: Look at the people in Dawson Park-

MEYERS: Back and forth, Back Forth.

WALKER: Yeah. You did it! You did it in Sal’em, probably every city has its...

MEYERS: I walked the streets and walked back.

WALKER: really?

MEYERS: And I walked at night!

WALKER: And there was enough. It was interesting because I went to Jefferson High school. You know where Jefferson High school is?

MEYERS: Oh yeah, I know where it is!

HENSEN: You went to Jefferson High school?

WALKER: Yeah

SONJA: Jefferson high school!

MEYERS: Oh man! Oh, Man!

WALKER: What do you think about Jefferson?

MEYERS: That’s when Jefferson and Grant used to be rivals.

WALKER: Right, Right.

M. I went to that high school.

WALKER: Jeff?

MEYERS: Grant.

WALKER: Grant? Okay, you know our natural rivalry. There was a natural high school between Jefferson and Grant

MEYERS: Oh yes, back in the days, back in the days. Back in the 70s and the 80s-

WALKER: 80s...right....I attended Jefferson High School during the so-called 'glory days when we had some pretty famous athletes came out of there.

MEYERS: Grant, and Jefferson, and Football....oh, good god!

WALKER: Right, Right.

MEYERS: Ouch!

WALKER: I was the manager of the football team that had the Heisman trophy winner, Tre Baker on it.

MEYERS: Oh yes, I remember.

WALKER: Melvin Renfrow...and Mel and I are still very good friends, so I was able to watch all of that excit’ement

MEYERS: Yeah, Jefferson and Grant...when they played, man, it was like-

HENSEN: World War Three! [Laughing]

MEYERS: You would see so many cops around that game

WALKER: Right, Right.

SONJA: Yeah!

WALKER: But now Jefferson is in the spotlight, its being redesigned. I'm one of the people who think it would be good to end the tradition of Jefferson High School. A lot of people wanna keep it going. But I think it’s inappropriate for a public school to be names after a slave trader, and about-

MEYERS: You're right on, yeah-

WALKER: Thomas Jefferson was...yes, he was our president. But his business was breeding black people for sale. He was a slave merchant.

MEYERS: Whoa, I didn't know that!

WALKER: Oh yeah, he had a farm where he would buy black people and breed them, and sell them and he would work them. He had a farm, or a prison, I guess, called Monticello.

MEYERS: Whoa-

WALKER: And he sold them...to imprison Africans for slave labor. So I think we should have public schools named after maybe more noble ideas.

SONJA: Thank you! [Laughing]

0:10:12.1

HENSEN: Yeah, Lincoln is also named after a president.

WALKER: Lincoln is also. But if you look closely into the lives of these men, and their writings, you will flearn that Madison is a slave trader...uhm...Madison...Jefferson...Uh don’t know about Cleveland... but our nation is just generally founded on the principals of black oppression and white supr’emacy.

HENSEN: Right-

WALKER: And I'm challenging some of those concepts-

HENSEN: Yeah, They used to say blacks are trying to rule over the white people....

WALKER: No.......

HENSEN: White people are trying to make slavery happen again...like back in the 60s when it happened, Vietnam, Mississippi, The KKK and stuff...

WALKER: Well the United States I think is as a nation...has really...uh...kinda...supported the ideas of black exploitation. In the 60s, 70s...

HENSEN: Nice talkin’ to you.

WALKER: Thank you, well you went to Grant...so....we're not rivals anymore.

MEYERS: that’s right! That’s right, we're not rivals anymore.

SOMMERS: Is it already 10:30?

HENSEN: It's 10:35

MEYERS: It’s eleven 'o clock, that clock is wrong.

SOMMERS: Great...So you can sit and talk about this. Great. Okay. You know what? I would like it if one of you guys...could you ask Cliff about his parents and what they did when he was growing

up?

0:12:03.7

MEYERS: Hey Cliff, what did your parents do when you were growing up?

WALKER: Well my Father came to Portland from Oklahoma, and he worked with the Union Pacific Railroad. The Union Pacific Railroad was responsible for bringing many black people here. I noticed that most of the black children that I knew...their families were associated with the railroads. My father deceased when I was very young; I think I was five years old. My mother was a school teacher, she was one of the first black school teachers in the area. And she opened the old Eliot school around here. She taught there for many years, then retired. So...My Father was a cook on the train, and my mother was a school teacher.

R: Wow. I was curious to move on to the old church you mentioned earlier. I was curious if you had any m’emories from that church, or what the community was like....

WALKER: Well as...Well I was very young, and I wasn't thinking very much about where I was or what I was doing. They had a very flamboyant preacher named Reverend Arlie Agars. And, He was a showman of the highest order...and I think the only the showman I ever saw that uh...was close to him...was James Brown. This guy liked to dress in the different robes, and he was very active, a lot of energy, and he would jump and spin and shout, and he was entertaining. And he could sing, I guess he came from a singing family. His sister was a very prominent gospel singer.....Her name, I think...was Doris Agars...for those who know gospel music. So he really promoted gospel music.

MEYERS: Like James Brown?

WALKER: Reverend Agars-- they were similar in style.

MEYERS: I wish Michael Jackson was still alive.

WALKER: Do ya?

MEYERS: Oh, I love his singin'.

WALKER: I just remember the church was a good community. Ya know, ya remember Easter programs, and the Christmas programs, and the pageants....it was a place where I was indoctrinated in Christianity and Christian theology...Tradition.

SONJA: No more.

WALKER: No more?

SONJA: Yeah.

WALKER: What? No more a Christian. No more...Or do I go to church...Not so much. I think my mother was pretty liberal, and she didn't stay in the tradition...I would classify her as a Christian woman, but she taught us that it wasn't about going to church as it was about taking church where you go. So I kind of always subscribed to that. Be good, do the best you can...Wherever you go, try to live up to those general tenants of being good, being fair, being nice...Friendly, neighborly. Did I answer your question, Sonya?

SONJA: Yeah. [Laughing]

WALKER: Good.

0:16:14.2

SOMMERS: You like music; I think cliff has some m’emories about a record store....The house of sound? Do you remember that? Maybe you both....ask him a little about that...

WALKER: Well after graduating from Jefferson High School, I went into the air force, and after that I came back....and as I mentioned earlier, I had a friend who was successful in professional athleticism, where he earned a little bit more money that the rest of us, and he invested in this idea of a record shop called The House of Sound. And it was up on Williams Avenue, up around about Beech Street. And we made it our business to promote so-called black music...because black music at the time wasn't really being played on the radio.....So that got in to....we called it Oregon's largest selection of Rhythm and Blues, Gospel, and Jazz. So we worked real hard to keep black music or bring black music in Portland and promote it. We had a radio program called candy-man. We would play records on the radio, or when people would hear records on the radio, they would get excited and come down to the record stop. I remember record companies would send us what they called promos, and try to develop support for a record that they had interest in. And I remember getting a record called Respect by Aretha Franklin.

MEYERS: Aretha Franklin...???

WALKER: And I remember taking it all around town to all the...what do you call it...program guys...and nobody would touch it, nobody would play it. And we lived in our own kind of isolated world. I think we were known for our distribution of Mo-town music, Mo-town was just coming into its glory, and my partner had a connection with the Mo-town office. So we promoted Stevie Wonder...

HENSEN: oh, I love Stevie Wonder!

WALKER: And The Marvelettes....Marvin Gaye...Who else?

MEYERS: Ray Charles?

WALKER: No...Well, we did a lot of Ray Charles, yeah. Solomon Birk, Etta James...I’m just trying to think of some of the names...uh it was...It was a fun time. Lotta Jazz, lotta Jazz...Blue note label....and Pulse...Lee Morgan...Chimney Smith...Oh, we just immersed ourselves in music. And then we would uh...Back in those days, one of the ways people got familiar got music was through jukeboxes. And they were like record players that you put money in, play records. And uh...as a record shop...a lot of the juke box vendors would come into the record shop, because there was nowhere else to get soul music. So I kind of got introduced to how music was promoted and put on juke boxes.

HENSEN: That's why every time I go to McDonalds, I put on the jukebox.

WALKER: They don’t...Do they still have jukeboxes at McDonalds...?

HENSEN: Oh yeah, they have a juke box in McDonalds-

WALKER: Do they?

HENSEN: Well these kind of Mcdonalds do.

WALKER: That’s pretty cool

HENSEN: Once you go inside the door...it’s on your...you known where you get the food at...it’s at the counter.

WALKER: Which McDonalds?

HENSEN: Any McDonald’s.

WALKER: Oka-.

HENSEN: Any McDonalds has ‘em....it’s right there...where you go to the bathroom, right next to the wall.

WALKER: Well I learned to...in my explorations.. I could go look at a jukebox and get a feel for the clientele...There were some jukeboxes where you would have a hundred selections and I wouldn't know one song. And I just put in a quarter, and get my three picks, and somebody would-

HENSEN: I got my three picks...I got Ad them, john john, John Jimber...Those are my three picks for a juke box.

WALKER: What were your three picks? I mean yeah you just told me-

HENSEN: Journey, Boston, Loverboy, Cream, Areo.

WALKER: Okay...I like ‘em.

WALKER: Sam Cooke? You ever heard of Sam Cook? Addie James is one of my favorite f’emale vocalists.

HENSEN: Ray Charles is my Mom's favorite singer-

WALKER: Yeah-

HENSEN: Ray Charles...and...Is my mom's favorite.

WALKER: Well Ray Charles used to visit Portland and have concerts. I remember in high school, I would go and actually see Ray Charles...I'd see Ike and Tina Turner.

HENSEN: I've seen John Brooks in concert.

WALKER: And that was exciting. It was an era of public dance, and people seemed to dance more...uh...and that transition of going to concerts was a very hard thing for me...because I found it difficult to just sit and listen to music, because I came up in a tradition where it was called the public dance...where, ya know, people would go out, and dress up, and be seen, and boogie. Dance. They liked dancing. We called ‘‘em public dancing.

HENSEN: Every time I go to a place I fall asleep.

WALKER: Yeah. But uh, I got to see the back end of public dancing. They have places called ballet royal, the Crystal Ballroom...there were two or three joints where you get two or three hundred people...and that was a lot of people back then...I mean it was very segregated...it was...what do you call that? It was...de-facto; it wasn't by law that only black people went to these dances...the artists...would play music that black people like. And you go to a public dance...two or three hundred people...and maybe just see one or two white people at the dance. So....you got me r’eminiscing...thinking about the good old days. Two dollars and fifty cents was a lot of money was a lot of money to go hear somebody perform, and you hoped someone left the fire escape door open...[Laughing] Ya shoot in the back.... [Laughing] That’s just the way it was...summertime...in my era, ya work all summer picking beans or strawberries in the field-

0:23:29.6

HENSEN: Oh, I have to pick strawberries this weekend.

WALKER: Are ya?

HENSEN: It’s not gonna be fun-

WALKER: Ya didn't make a lotta money, ya know?

HENSEN: Yeah, especially when it’s getting 97 this weekend. It's gonna be hot.

WALKER: Yeah, it gets hot....Shut down by one o'clock.

HENSEN: Bring two big barrels...of water.

WALKER: Well, uh, kids my age....most of ‘em' got the social security cards and numbers from Alderman Farms...I think they were in Woodburn....but Alderman Farms.

HENSEN: My mom lives there, in Woodburn.

WALKER: In Woodburn?

HENSEN: My mom and dad both live in Woodburn.

WALKER: Well, they used to send busses up Williams Avenue and pick up Black people. We would get on the busses and go out to the farms. Alderman farms.....That’s where I got my social security number...I was what....about 14...13...It was hard work...you work all day, and you were lucky if you made two dollars and fifty cents.

HENSEN: That’s my home. My brothers farm.

WALKER: Wow. Were ya a farm boy?

JH While my brother was out doing his job, I'd go out to feed the horses and cows.

WALKER: See, I wouldn't know what end to feed.

HENSEN: Oh, ya get used to ‘em...We got about 8 horses, and 4 cows-

WALKER: Sonya, have you been on a farm? Yeah? I hear ya have a farm here or goats or something-

HENSEN: We got goats too! Try and get some goats, you have a hard time to get these ones right here. You tryin' to catch ‘em!

WALKER: I wouldn't even try! You can't! [Laughing]

WALKER: For some reason I don't get animals...I know some people have a natural inclination they see in animals...start talking to ‘em...wanna pet it...And I think I have a lot of...of Allergies. I'm allergic to the protein in animals...hair. And I just naturally just wanna avoid '‘em.

HENSEN: In my brother's farm...the horses just come right to ya.

WALKER: Some people

HENSEN: I mean, our horse, he'll come right to ya if ya got hay in your hand, they'll come right to ya

WALKER: See I'm...Their mouths are just so huge, I just think they'll reach over and bite my arm off or something

HENSEN: Yeah, you don't wanna go against the mama. The mom'll spit at ya.

WALKER: Yeah I have a lotta respect for-

HENSEN: We got two of ‘em at home-

WALKER: I got a lot of a respect for-

HENSEN: I will not go....I will even go next to the mama. When they spit at you, man, uh-uh. No. I’d rather take care of ‘em, you guys can take care of ‘em.

0:26:15.8

WALKER: I sometimes wonder if I’ve don't got an inordinate fear of dogs.

HENSEN: Oh, talking about dogs now! We’re talking about dogs now! My mom’s got three canine dogs! Police dogs!

WALKER: Well, as a child I think people used to train their dogs to scare black people.

HENSEN: No! No, my dog don't do don't do anything to black people-

WALKER: You ever heard this command ‘sick '‘em?’

HENSEN: No, Do you, like, do you go like this to '‘em?

WALKER: I always remember somebody tellin' their dog ‘Sick ‘em, Sick ‘em.’

HENSEN: When a dog attacks ya, do you go like this to their face? That’s when they attack ya.

WALKER: They'll attack ya if you walk away from '‘em fast.

HENSEN: My mom told me if you talk to ‘em and they don't know ya they'll attack you.

WALKER: I think they can sense your fear.

HENSEN: If you have a doggie biscut in your hand, they'll shake your hand.

CW You don't have to worry about me.

HENSEN: The more you run from them, they'll attack.

WALKER: Yeah.

HENSEN: They know what they're up to.

WALKER: I just have this fear of dogs.

JH Just fall back, on the ground.

WALKER: I just avoid them. [Laughing]

0:27:45.8

SOMMERS: Wow...You knew that since you were a kid? That you were afraid of dogs because you felt like you people were gonna send their dog after you?

WALKER: Well, yeah, you can tell how people feel about you by the way their dogs approach you? Dogs or animals sense their trainers or owners attitudes and they act along. And I've felt that dogs were an expression of a lot anti-black...and I still feel that.

HENSEN: They won't hurt ya, if you don't egg ‘em on like that, they won't bite ya.

WALKER: I think dogs see race if their owners see race. And uh...you can get a sense. I mean, the human adds his senses....and you can feel how somebody feels about you by the way their animal treats ya. I have friends who have big dogs. But they are not threatened by me because I know these people, and they never trained their dogs to be aggressive. And then there are dogs who are very, very aggressive and I don't know why.

HENSEN: I grew up with dogs and my neighbors have two pit bulls. I will never go by that fence.

WALKER: I have friends who have pit bulls-

HENSEN: and these pit bulls are like this and they got the Rottweilers in there...uh-uh. I remember when they was a small puppy. Now they huge. I will never go see a pit bull. No thank you.

SOMMERS: Oh! He’s back! (29:25)

MEYERS: yeah I just had to finish my work real quick.

SOMMERS: Oh, Okay, well, do we have...I turned off my watch...but...we have enough for a few more questions...did you guys have more questions?

WALKER: Sonya, c'mon, you look like you got lot of questions in that head of yours.

SONJA: Mmm.

WALKER: No?

MEYERS: I can't think of one.

WALKER: No?

MEYERS: I can’t think of one.

WALKER: If I answered all your questions, it makes me feel good.

MEYERS: I think you did.

HENSEN: Dogs!

MEYERS: Yeah.

0:30:10.8

SOMMERS: I have....you said something about getting dressed for going to the dances. Do you remember what you used to wear? [Laughing]

WALKER: Well...Whatever was popular at the time, ya know? I think James Brown was a fashion plate, and you would go to the dances to find out what he was wearing, and then you would go and try to find it in the stores. But I remember Ray Charles came to town once, and I had a gold blazer, and the reason I remember it was because Ray Charles didn't show up. And people so-called rioted. Did you ever hear of the Ray Charles Riot in Portland?

SONJA: Yeah.

WALKER: they brought out the fire department n' I had a wool blazer and the fire department squirted water on it and it shrunk.

SONJA: Ha ha!

WALKER: So I remember that...It had a medallion on it, I thought I was cool.

MEYERS: Have you met any big celebrities, at all?

WALKER: Big celebrities...Have I met?

MEYERS: When you was growing up?

WALKER: When I was growing up...Oh I...at the time there was a I guess presidential candidates are big celebrities and I think I met a guy named Adali Stevenson, Who was running for office. And then my personal friend is a celebrity.

0:31:52.1

HENSEN: When you was a little kid did you have a big afro?

WALKER: No...

HENSEN: I had to bring that up because I watched soul train back in the day.

WALKER: There was the afro....I think I preceded the afros, we had what we called a kabatus. It was a real short cut...hairdo. But, uh...yeah. Flat tops, ya know?

0:32:24.7

MEYERS: When you was in High school, at Jefferson, how were the dances?

WALKER: the dances were cool...they were ya know...when you look back, Jefferson, when I was there, it was just a cutting edge above integration...there weren't a lotta black people going there.

MEYERS: Right.

WALKER: And...Just that whole bringing white kids and black kids together to dance must have been terrifying....to the school people.

MEYERS: right-

WALKER: have you ever heard of Emmett Till?

MEYERS: Yes.

WALKER: Kay...well, we were about the same age, so we were just terrified of interacting with white people in that kind of intimacy.

0:33:12.6

MEYERS: When you was going to Jefferson...was it a white school?

WALKER: It was very white, very few blacks

MEYERS: how many blacks were there?

WALKER: I would say if we were lucky maybe 5-7 percent. We had the appearance of a larger black population because the only activity that were really open to us and the doors were open to us were the doors to the athletic programs. So we were well represented in track, and football, and basketball.

MEYERS: Softball-

WALKER: not even then...but back when I was, there weren't a lot of blacks playing basketball, maybe one or two people on a team of fifteen people. But the football team had a few more, and the track team was easy...and sports have always been expensive, so track was something you could run fast you could participate. You didn't have to buy the gear...and we had some very, very, successful track teams. So I remember-

MEYERS: I remember when I was in 7th grade at Grant. We had a...we played Jefferson...we had to play at the Memorial Coliseum, because there was too many problems with Jefferson and Grant-

WALKER: well, I don't know why they promoted that riot...but they did.

MEYERS: It’s the biggest between Grant and Jefferson, It’s the biggest game in town, cuz every Friday night, when Grant and Jefferson is playing, everybody has to get their tickets, earlybefore the game starts, you get down to the coliseum, coliseum is packed.

WALKER: I think that’s part of-

MEYERS: It’s always been packed because Jefferson and Grant was the biggest rival in the PIL.

WALKER: High school sports is kind of...oh, what would you call it? A product or, ya they lather you up to fight, and ra ra ra.Loyalties, and royalties, and en’emies...ya gotta have a rivalry.

MEYERS: Oh yeah, to sell-

WALKER: yeah, to sell tickets.

MEYERS: yeah, to sell tickets. Cuz...they...they knew Grant and Jefferson is gonna be playing...oh yeah 'i gotta go watch that game....big game in town biggest game in town.

WALKER: It’s kinda tough because we share a border, Jefferson and Grant. [Laughing] But yeah, sometimes it turns ugly.

MEYERS: Grant wins the first game, Jefferson wins the second game...and that’s when cops come.

WALKER: Right.

MEYERS: And cops come first and second game.

WALKER: I've visited a basketball over at Jefferson, and I was just shocked by police on horses.

MEYERS: Oh yeah-

WALKER: You had to walk by horses just to get into the gymnasium. Very intimidating and very unfriendly...but that’s the way it is. But...it’s a different day.

MEYERS: Yeah, When I was going to Grant...Friday morning I’d get to school they'd say 'you going to the game tonight? Big game tonight? and I'd say who? and they'd say Grant and Jefferson and I'd say oh I don't give a heck about it, I’m not, imp like I’m not going to support my school, so I’d just say forget it, cuz I didn't wanna go to put up with all them cops down there with Jefferson on one side, Grant's on one side-

WALKER: We would have a rivalry, I mean even as a freshman, when they introduce that school rivalry...you don't know about it, and then you start going to the school

MEYERS: Oh yeah.

WALKER: And they used to have these things called student body cards-

MEYERS: Yeah-

WALKER: We would have a competition with grant on which school could sell the most student body cards... [Laughing]

WALKER: and that's that school that won-

MEYERS: Was Grant.

WALKER: Well...I guess it changed-

MEYERS: Yeah.

WALKER: The student body president of the rivalry school would have to paint a garbage can of the other school, but they promoted this rivalry between Jefferson and Grant.

0:37:33.0

HENSEN: Who had the best cheerleaders between Grant and Jefferson?

WALKER: Well, Jeff always had the best cheerleaders because...ya know, I think we're all color coded. If I see somebody wearing blue and gold, I just start salivating. [Laughing]

MEYERS: I went to a Lincoln high school game last year....Football. Grant and Lincoln...and man...I'd tell ya, Lincoln does not know how to play. Grant just beat '‘em badly. They can't throw a football right.

WALKER: Well, on the track team, I remember I was manager for a lot of these teams.

MEYERS: Hey, Grant's a good track team.

WALKER: But Jeff had an outstanding-

MEYERS: Jefferson had a good track team in the 70s and 80s.

WALKER: But see I'm goin' back to the 60s.

MEYERS: Oh yes.

WALKER: So I’m reachin' way back...I remember when Wilson was a new school, and it was the end of the track season, so the Jefferson track runners knew what their times were, So I remember goin over to wilson, and the trackmen decided they wouldn't even put on their sweats, they were gonna to run in street clothes.

MEYERS: Yep, yep, yep.

WALKER: They got d’emolished for that. And uh.... [Laughing]

MEYERS: There was a guy back in the days, went to Jefferson high school, was a black guy, and when he did track, he didn't wear no shoes at all, he went bare feet.

WALKER: My sister went to Jeff, and she was a good track star, and she ran barefooted, but that the beautiful thing about it didn't have to spend a lot of money to participate. If you were fast you were fast, if you could jump high you could jump high. That’s a pure sport, I like that. It's no politics. [Laughing]

HENSEN: I didn't do track, I did softball.

WALKER: Softball?

HENSEN: We just got back all the time doin our softball tournament...we brought home the gold.

WALKER: Well, that was never my sport. I could never catch a fly or hit a ball.

HENSEN: That’s why I played third base.

WALKER: That's a hot box [Laughing]. Oh, no, third base!

HENSEN: That’s what my coats called, a hot box. That’s what the major league calls it, the hot box. Anybody playing third base is in the hotbox.

MEYERS: I hurt my ankle playing thisrd last time.

WALKER: Ouch!

MEYERS: That hurt

WALKER: I wrestled.

MEYERS: I did track.

WALKER: But it wasn't fair because when I started high school, I was 75 pounds. And uh...the lowest weight division was 98...So my first year I gave up quite a bit...so my sophomore year, I was just about 98 pounds, I had been wrestling at about a 20 pound disadvantage. For the first year, so I was pretty good. In fact, varsity and went to state, and all those things, and did mean things to people who were in sports.

HENSEN: That’s especially when you are in high school when you go to state...you get to meet, you get to run, you get to see everybody play against everybody else....and like football, when Gran went to state, when we went to state in '76 we dominated the state. We dominated at football, we dominated every school, and when the playoffs came, we just...we...our school was just...we just dominated everybody in the playoffs.

WALKER: Well...there was a tradition where you get these letterman sweaters, and used to be able walk around, cock out a strut with your letters...It was a trophy you know

WALKER: People give you-

HENSEN: Back in those days, Letterman jacket was only like-

WALKER: Respect.

HENSEN: 15 bucks back in them days. Now...it's 150 bucks for a jacket...at Grant high school. Any school.

WALKER: I think thirty dollars was a letterman sweater

HENSEN: Yep...yep-

WALKER: Specially made-

HENSEN: Now it’s like what?

WALKER: oh, I don't know-

HENSEN: Eighty bucks now for a sweater?

WALKER: I could never afford one-

HENSEN: Hundred and fifty for this jacket? I said forget it, I’m not going to pat...pay one hundred and fifty.

0:41:57.6

WALKER: And that was interesting too cause...there was a tradition goin on where...the white athletes and the black athletes had different style lettermen sweaters. The black athletes lettermen sweaters where white.

HENSEN: Right-

WALKER: And uh...white athletes would wear these dark navy blue sweaters.

HENSEN: Yep.

WALKER: Big ol' gold ‘J’ for Jefferson. And it was....because the black athletes in the city all wore...

HENSEN: White.

WALKER: White sweaters...They would different letters representing their school but there was a fraternity of black athletes that....tran...Ya know...the school could all wear our white sweaters...to where-

HENSEN: Yeah.

WALKER: The schools would ya know...if you were at Lincoln they probably had a red sweater...and uh...Grant they would have a blue sweater-

HENSEN: Green-

WALKER: Green...but the black athletes and what they call the...they had a league...what was it called? PIL?

HENSEN: Yep...it was PIL.

WALKER: And the Black athletes in the PIL in all of the schools.

HENSEN: Wore white.

WALKER: Wore white sweaters so that segregation thing...it would distinguish ourselves differently.

HENSEN: Jefferson always beat Roosevelt. They beat Roosevelt like a pancake.

WALKER: No!

HENSEN: Oh yeah! We beat ‘em pretty bad last year. It was 45 to nothin' at half time. Cleveland rolled all over Roosevelt.

WALKER: Well they used to have a pageantry called the jamboree.

HENSEN: Yep, Jamboree, oh, I remember them. Back in the...Oh yes.

WALKER: It was huge

HENSEN: Yep.

WALKER: They just don't have that...sense of excit’ement, or unity, or community?

HENSEN: Jeff would beat my school.

WALKER: C'mon-

HENSEN: Now when McKay lost to Jefferson, McKay came up here and beat Jefferson-

WALKER: Oh-

HENSEN: One time.

WALKER: I'd remember that time, we were bitter about that.

HENSEN: Oh yeah.

WALKER: It's in their record books.

HENSEN: But they sure did beat...South Salem.

WALKER: And I wanna meet you outside after we're finished.

HENSEN: Ohhh!

WALKER: Swear this deal off! [Laughing]

WALKER: Well we have to settle this-

HENSEN: Stand in my office

WALKER: Yeah...But those were fun days...all getting to-

0:44:33.7

HENSEN: Remember how those McKay kids used to do it-

WALKER: But it was interesting just to, ya know, against so much of black...I...I hear tapes on so much of our phobia on how do we integrate into society and that a whole growing up...ya know....um....black and white clubs, exclusion, went to Jeff, but never really felt like we were a part of the...I didn't even know we had a golf team or a swim team until I saw the yearbooks...ya know, blacks couldn't play the links, they couldn't swim in the pools, so it must have been a challenge in time for the administrations-

HENSEN: Yeah...schools now...it's like...everybody gets along with everybody...its just like Grant....I was with someone from grant onetime, and we had lunch at Jefferson High School, cuz we to take some books to Jefferson high school...they didn't start no fight with us, they just said hi to us and shook our hand, ya know, and I'm like them-

WALKER: I lost...They used to have these social clubs, and I was a m’ember of one of the social clubs, and they would have what they called joint meetings, which was a social club of another school,

HENSEN: Yep, yep.

WALKER: we had a meeting of another group called trails, and we had uh...meeting with a....social with the girls club at Lincoln high school...and I remember the next day I worked at...I worked at the Waverly country club as a kid, and that's another story...but uh...on Sunday afternoon, we would serve people at a buffet at the Waverly Country club, and this girl came through with her family that I had been socially involved with the night before in a joint meeting.

HENSEN: Right-

WALKER: She was Caucasian.

HENSEN: Right-

WALKER: and she recognized.. she thought she recognized me in my service outfit. and she said: ‘don't I know you?’ And I was scared to talk to her.

HENSEN: Right.

WALKER: I didn't want...because that's just the color line...ya just didn't have conversations...and I tried to ignore the fact, the night before that we were talking...but at the waverly country club, you didn't have that kind of social enterprise-

HENSEN: Right-

WALKER: And the guy saw me talking to the girl, and I was never asked to come back to work.

HENSEN: Whoa-

WALKER: Yeah...and that was the thing. You were just afraid to talk to people because it would either get them in trouble or you in trouble.

HENSEN: Right-

WALKER: 'Cause the color line was so severe here. Ya know....I...I told um...Laurie I would try to keep it on the bright side... [laughing] Ya know when you ask some of us to reminisce, Portland...I love it cause I don't know what else to do with it, cause this is where I grew up and this is where my friends were...but...it's not a pretty city when it comes to race...and still. the police stopping black people at rate time...five times that of white people....and the lawsuits and trying to find a place to live and all of that stuff is a better part of my life. I don't know if i try to bury it or ignore it, because I still have to go on but uh...I probably have a chip on my shoulder, I'm trying to learn how to balance it. Let's try to keep it on the bright side 'cause you can go on and on and on and on-

HENSEN: Oh, I know, definitely.

WALKER: When black people get together, that’s all they know...is how their grandparents were treated, how their parents were treated, how their brothers and sisters were treated...[laughing] this topic of every night at dinner just about how abusive the American society has been...but um...I'll try not to go there, lets go ra ra high school. I just remember the integration...just bein' afraid to talk to white girls in your own school...and the sneaking around to be friends with people...real story. Ya block it. But when you revisit it you realize just how tough it was just to feel well...worthy of friendships, of people of other religions, ethnicities...And I remember I had a crush on a girl who told me she was Greek...I thought Greeks were white...Greeks didn't sift you so they ain't white.... [Laughing] I didn't know that... [Laughing] I thought Italians were white. So....we were all kind of forced into these faults, isolations, crossing the lines...we would challenge, even today I have a friend where he had a crush on a African American girl and a Greek girl, so he could pick up the Greek Girl, and I would pick up the African American girl, and we would switch after we would through getting past the parents to get people out of the house...we can laugh now, but then it was pretty severe stuff. And I was in the air force, in Corvallis, Oregon, and that was when I was 17 years old...south in the valley, you don't want to meet a bunch of black soldiers or airmen runnin’ around in Corvallis. A little money in your pocket and know where to go, hitting on the high school kids, and falomas, and Corvallis....which is....wasn't popular. It was crazy.

0:50:59.8

HENSEN: You was in the war?

WALKER: Air force.

HENSEN: Have you been overseas and stuff?

WALKER: No.

JH. No?

WALKER: No, Portland has an African Sister city and I was responsible for creating that relationship with a city in Zimbabwe called Mutar, Zimbabwe, So I’ve been to Zimbabwe four times, and taken people over.

HENSEN: What college did you go to?

WALKER: I spent most of my time at Portland State.

HENSEN: Portland State?

WALKER: But I didn't spend enough time to get a degree...I was always distracted by some type of...it more important to demonstrate against the war then to sit in class or something. And I made a lot of choices that probably weren't the best choices for a professional career, but I live with '‘em.

HENSEN: Have you ever met Martin Luther...Martin Luther King....

WALKER: No. but of Malcolm X some kinda way seemed to be a hero to me, I liked what he was saying at the time he was sayin’ it. Fred Hampton, I liked what he had to say. Are those names familiar to you? Paul Robson. I liked what he was doin'...Martin Luther King at the time-

HENSEN: He had the dream.. he had the dream-

WALKER: Yeah, he did...

HENSEN: As they told ‘em, he had the dream.

WALKER: He was coming out about the same time Malcolm, and I think Malcolm spoke truth to me more than Martin Luther King, at the time. Uh...I saw Martin Luther King kind of as a Christian minister. And Malcolm was a teacher. And he could blame things and...put things into perspective. And I think he really excited me.

HENSEN: What was some...that was cool-

R: Well we have about four minutes left, is there thing else?

HENSEN: I don't have anything to say, I'm done.

WALKER: You're done?

WALKER: Well this wasn't too intimidating, I was scared to death.

HENSEN: you were scared?

WALKER: Have you ever been invited into a situation to talk to people you don't know? [Laughing]

WALKER: Don't know what they're gonna ask-

HENSEN: But...but.. but at least you met some good friends.

WALKER: Yeah, but they're rivals. Grant? C'mon. [Laughing]

WALKER: I got a square deal with McNary. And I got to talk.

HENSEN: McKaya.

WALKER: Sorry. But my work isn't done...we'll go out in the parking lot...[laughing] You gonna have to help me, Sonya.

HENSEN: Aw that ain't fair, two against one?

WALKER: Im sidin' up, this is a racial thing.

HENSEN: If you get them two, I get her on my side, Three against two.

WALKER: No, I will not fight a woman, cause they don't fight fair. [laughing] They don't know the rules. Girls get one off on ya, you can't even block it.

HENSEN: I heard girls are smarter than boys are.

WALKER: You ever had a high heel buried in your chest?

HENSEN: No, I don't wanna find out. [laughing]

WALKER: I broke up a fight at the cotton club once, I was just sitting at a table and a guy and a lady got to fightin', and ya know, everybody jumped on the guy, to keep him from hurtin the lady, and she was still was beating on him, and I didn't think that was fair...before I knew it, I had a high heel buried in my chest, and I was all....whoa-

WALKER: I want outta here, and I felt like I’m violent.. I didn't know what to do...turned her around on me, and I didn't know who she was....So I stay out of people's fights now.

HENSEN: She might turn around turn he....back to you.

WALKER: Yeah, well. I didn't get any sympathy. Well, this was fun, thank you so much.

HENSEN: Yeah, come by.

WALKER: I hope I was helpful....meeting the objectives.

HENSEN: Well, nice talking to you man!

WALKER: Hey, yeah!

HENSEN: See you around again!

WALKER: Yeah, okay!

SOMMERS: We should do some.. can we do a couple pictures together?

HENSEN: Sure.

WALKER: With grant and Jeff, are you kiddin’ me?

R: yeah! [laughing]

HENSEN: get up here, Jeff.

WALKER: Okay.

R: So you can sit....Hold still-

WALKER: Who is this good lookin' lady anyway? [Laughing]

[pictures are taken]