Joe Nunn

Joe Nunn Transcript
Interview by Anthony Brown
Time: 46:32

NUNN: So was I. Real shy. Do you know what I think about shy people? They are always watching, they are always observing. Is that you?

UNKNOWN: Kind of.

NUNN: Yeah, kind of? Yeah I know it is. [laughing] That’s why some people don't have a lot to say, ‘cause they are watching everybody else.

[Interview instructions are gone over]

ANTHONY BROWN: My name is Anthony Brown. I'm 13 years old. I'm in the Boise-Eliot neighborhood and I go to Boise-Eliot. Joe, for the record would you please state your name and age?

NUNN: My name is Joe Duerrel Nunn. I am 61 years-old.

Anthony: And the year you were born and where-

NUNN: I was born Oct. 22nd in 1948, about three months after the Vanport Flood, that both my parents were in.

BROWN: Were you born in the Eliot neighborhood?

NUNN: Uh Yes I was. I was born in Emmanuel Hospital and um, right after the Vanport Flood after I was born. Uh as a way to help make the community whole they made a book of all the babies born at Emmanuel Hospital, and ‘cause I was so cute I got my picture on the front page.

BROWN: Do you still have the paper?

NUNN: My mom saved everything. My mom chronicled the whole life of my family. So I still have the little pamphlet from when my baby picture was there in 1948.

BROWN: Did you ever move out of the Eliot Neighborhood?

NUNN: Ah eventually we did move into the Woodlawn Neighborhood where I went to school and then I went to Jefferson and then when my father taught at Jefferson. My father also taught at Eliot and my mother started the first science program in 1971, right here at Boise-Eliot

BROWN: So what was it like having your father as teacher?

NUNN: Some days I disliked it greatly because my father was a well known teacher in the community, but it didn't start with him. My grandfather tricked Portland and became the first African-American teacher. What I mean by that is, people in the '30s and '40s had to find a way to succeed when there wasn't just discrimination. It was segregation and you weren't even sometimes allowed to use your skills and your college degrees. But that didn't stop a lot of people, they were determined to be successful anyway. So my grandfather had two degrees and on purpose he didn't send in his picture with his two degrees. He never let anyone see him until the first day of school and that school then the original Eliot was where Matt Dishman Community Center is. And you may not know who Matt Dishman was but in this neighborhood, he was the first black man to be a sheriff when black men weren't even allowed to apply for a job at the police. So he had the green uniform as a sheriff in 1951. My grandfather was the first black teacher in 1946. My father was in medical school and they told him they didn't want to give him the money to finish. So the Dean of Lewis and Clark, which mean someone who's [inaudible], help my father out and took him to Portland Public Schools and demanded they hire my father as the next African-American teacher. That’s what happened. So he was in the Eliot neighborhood, he taught at the old Eliot, and then he taught at the Eliot that’s down the street here. So you can see how I was connected here. I was born in Emmanuel, my grandfather taught in the neighborhood as the first African American teacher, my mom worked here at boise with the first science program, environmental science program in Portland in 1971and we went to school I actually went to school here when I was in the first and second grade. Then I went to whats now King, it was called Highland then, and then I went to Jefferson and my dad taught at Jefferson, so getting back to your question. My dad had a rule when he came to Jefferson. Because my dad was really, he was a tough teacher.

BROWN: What was the rule?

NUNN: The rule was that now that I'm at Jefferson, you have to be like Martin Luther King not Malcom X and you cannot fight. And so I said ‘If someone picks on me I can fight, right?’ And he goes ‘No you cannot fight.’ And I dislike my father strongly for making me have to have that discipline. But as I found out as I grew older and older that discipline is what makes your life with character. Because you learn to be able to sacrifice and feel good in your sacrifice. Because you know your doing in for a bigger reason. My mom and dad had a saying in our family, we always had to be home for dinner and when you were home for dinner you had to talk about what happened during the school day and what you learned. You couldn't say an I don't know. You couldn't say an I didn't learn anything. That was not acceptable.

0:05:30.0

NUNN: So at the table they would always tell us this all the time. The world is not about you. If you think the world is about you an you only treat yourself like that, that’s a cold, cruel, selfish world. You may know a lot of people that know you, but you won't have a lot of true close friends because its all about you. The world is not about you, but what you do for other people will make a better world for everybody and that’s the way your name will be remembered. But only do that for one reason and one reason only. Not for fame, not for fortune cause you've heard about people in history that thought they were gonna be lifted up as prophets and instead were, other things were done to them. If you know what I'm saying. Okay so the one reason to do things is because in your heart its right to do and you want to help other people who don't have as much as you have, have a better life cause if they have a better life we all have a better life. That’s how I've lived my life.

0:06:33.0

BROWN: Can you describe the home you grew up in?

NUNN: Yes I can. As I told you my father was in medical school, my mom was working, and one of my mom's best friends was our babysitter, like a second mom. And she had a deal with my mom that you go a head and go to work, pay me part of your salary to keep your kids and then when you get through with work and start going to school, then you can help me out so I can be successful. So my experience in Portland when we truly had a black community, we had our own farmers market, our own radio station and this is in the '50s. Businesses, restaurants, clothing stores all on Williams and Vancouver. Since we had all of that my family just kind of felt like you know its really important to give back and they did that so much that their name is on many institutions in this city. There is a room at King Neighborhood school and the neighborhood program is named after my grandfather Robert (Fuller or Ford???), the auditorium at Jefferson is named after my grandfather Robert (Fuller or Ford???) because my grandfather, unbeknownst to me when I was three and four and five years-old we were always going to talent shows and plays and my grandfather was the director. Well what I found out is my grandfather payed for it out of his pocket because kids didn't get the opportunity and he was well known in this area for getting a lot of guys who went into bands and musical groups in the '60s their start was with my grandfather when they were between third and eighth grade. So he produced the shows on his own, he paid for them on his own, he never asked for anything back cause why do you do things? Cause you want to and because of that it all came back to me and I realized how connected I am to the neighborhood because so many people tell me about my grandfather, my father, my mother, and my older sister.

0:08.35

BROWN: That’s good, because like its good to help people in the community. Like what was your favorite thing to do when you were growing up?

NUNN: Oh I would have to say two things. My probably number one favorite thing to do was to be very active. So I played all kinds of sports. Sports taught me how to be motivated. My father was I told you had a very disciplined life so besides being one of the first african-americans teachers he was determined to make his family successful so my dad would teach all day, two night a week he would go work at St. Johns Safeway which is way out. He would go work at Safeway two days during the week and then all weekend my father worked at Safeway, eight hours a day, Saturday and Sunday. Monday morning right back to teaching. Tuesday night right back to Safeway. Thursday night back to Safeway. Weekend back to Safeway. And he did that even in the summertimes. And after 12 years you would think he would probably want to go buy a fancy car, buy himself some clothes. He spent all the money on my mom to go back to school and in the 1950s my father became a house husband. He'd have his teaching at day and instead of going to Safeway he'd come home and he did all the housework, he did all the cleaning, he did all the cooking, he did all the washing. He told my mom ‘You just study. Go to school. So you can make a better life for our family’. And that’s what happened. So I learned the greatest lesson in the world by seeing my father do the work that many men back then thought was so called 'women's work'. But my family was smart. My mother and dad taught me how to do all those things because they were very involved in the community, in the urban league, in the NAACP, in protests and demonstrations so that things were better for our neighborhood so that meant we had to do our part. Our part is that we had to cook and clean. And so my dad, my mom taught me all those things. But my mom was tricky. She said ‘if you learn to cook and you learn to clean for yourself, a woman will know that you don't need them cause you know how to take care of yourself. If a woman knows you know how to take care of yourself , she is gonna be attracted to you so I'm helping you get girlfriends’. And when I was 19 and moved out to my own apartment and called mom and asked for that red beans and rice recipe, first thing she said to me is ‘you got a girl coming over for dinner, don't ya?’ She said ‘See I told you I was gonna help you’.

BROWN: So was your childhood bad or good?

0:11:10.0

NUNN: My childhood was very… I'm so lucky. My greatest treasure in life was my parents. And so at a very early age, at four years-old, while walking downtown I read a sign to my father and it was the first thing I ever read and it said up on this building, ‘White trade only’. And I asked my dad what that meant. So Anthony do you know what that means? My father had to explain to me what is was to be different and I'm kind of unusual different, because in the south they would call me a 'yellow person'. My ethnicity is african-american, native-american, french-american and actually russian-jew from Germany. And you can trace my family's ancestry all the way back to the slave master who made my great-great grandmother have sex with him and the result of that was my great grandmother. She did not like being in the skin she was in because she was persecuted by not only black people but from white people, cause you know she looked like the oppressor. So before I was 10 years-old my parents had to teach all those lessons to me, they had to explain to me why some kids wouldn't like me as soon as they looked at me. But they also made me learn a great lesson, is that when people are jealous of you, then the haters are out there, why are they that way?

BROWN: Because they are jealous?

NUNN: Because there is something they like in you, but they don't want to admit it cause they are jealous that you have that. So what my dad got me to see was when people have jealousy that means you’re doing the right thing ‘cause they want to be you

0:12:53.0

NUNN: They can't admit to it. So I realized very early in life that man this is really screwed up. When some brothers think that they want to fight with me and other things and talk about me. My nickname in high school was 'Heinz 57'. Do you get that?

BROWN: Nuh-uh. [Inaudible]

0:13:12.0

NUNN: 'Heinz 57', I'm mixed with a lot of things.

BROWN: Oh.

NUNN: So that was my nickname and my mom taught me to laugh with them when they kid me. That was very hard ‘cause I'm a passionate, sensitive person, but my mom was right. So once I learned to laugh with them then they went on to kid someone else. They were done with me cause they couldn't get the reaction out of me like they used to. So it really used to hurt me that kids didn't think that I was African American, because I stood up more for my race then some of them. But I learned to get over that and the way I learned to get over it was the lesson my mom and dad taught me, take action don't just run your mouth. If you take action people see what you do you don't have to tell 'em you do, and that’s what I believe in.

0:13:55.0

BROWN: So who was your best friend growing up?

0:14:00.0

NUNN: Okay I gotta tell you something very different about me. I always test my friends, so growing up my mom and dad always questioned, why do you always do some many things for your friends? Why do you always give whatever you have to your friends? And I told them because I test my friends, I wanna find out how how far I can test my friend's relationship. And I would test them to the point where I found out where I could trust 'em and where I couldn't trust 'em. So because of that I learned how to have real close friends and I have some real real close friends, and not a lot of 'em, but a few of 'em. And we even sometimes call each other 'Little brother' and 'Big brother' and some of 'em are european and some of 'em are black and one of 'em is Japanese and one of 'em is Italian. And we always say those things to each other because were all the same since were all from the native land of Africa because if you know your history, the original mankind, the oldest ancestors of mankind continually get found in Africa. So when you look at one of the documents I left you, its a National Geographic article about all science traces all migrations to the beginning of life, which was in Africa. So were all the same. One of the lessons I had in my life is one of my students had Leukemia and was gonna die. I organized a bone marrow drive at Whitaker School for it. It turns out that this dark-skinned, african-american man, who didn't think he liked white people, the match to save his life was a european lady in Belgium. So Anthony what that meant is her DNA was in him. His DNA was in her. They were related through DNA. Which means through genetics, they all came from the same tree. You should check out [inaudible] and where they keep finding all these people

0:16:01.0

NUNN: It’s listed as the place right next to where the garden of eden is. So which is right science or evolution?

BROWN: Evolution.

NUNN: You think so? Maybe its both then. If God has all his mystery, maybe he's trying' to fool ya. Give a little mystery by showing you a little science and evolution. But you know sometimes, there are some teachers that are scared to bring that up nowadays because they think they might get in trouble and that’s another thing about my family, I've never been scared.

BROWN: So like did you go to church when you were growing up?

NUNN: Oh of course. We, many of us here that came to Portland after World War II and that were born here many of us went to the same church. It was either Bethel AME Church or St. Phillip's Church, were the two main ones. And St. Phillip's is the first african-american episcopal church west of the Mississippi. Many of the first black teacher after my grandfather, many of the women came from St. Phillip's Church. The reason why we didn't have Bethel AME Church was for awhile is because they built the first Coliseum and so african-american people live where now the Rose Garden and the Coliseum is and they made them move out of their houses and Bethel AME was the biggest church. Which I still remember being in there when I was three years-old. They tore it down so they had to reorganize and take about four years to raise the money to have their church again. So many people went to my church in the interim between that. And church was very important to me. Again my father gave me a disciplined life by making me volunteer as an altar boy. Which meant every Sunday I had to be there at 7:30 and he got up and helped me get breakfast. But they were all asleep when I went to church. I learned a lot just by watching and doing and at 12 years-old I old my dad I think I know a lot now. ‘You're just 12 years-old you don't know a lot.’ I go, ‘dad I'm going to show you how much I know about being a spiritual person. I'm gonna tell you five men in the church that I know are cheating on their wives’. And he looked at me like you're just 12 years-old, what the heck are you talking about. I said, ‘tell me if I'm right’ and I named five men in the church and he looked at me. And I'm like ‘yeah I'm right aren't I?’ ‘Yeah you're right but if you have knowledge like that you don't tell people what you know about 'em’. So he taught me another lesson, always let the other person show their hand. You know let them think you're weak and let them say whatever they want to say because in the end they just told you what their plan is. And you are the observant person, you are the shy person so you're listening to everything they say so you can use the psychology on 'em and know exactly how to treat 'em because they just told all their stuff cause they thought they were bold and bad. You can always get 'em.

BROWN: So what is this picture?

NUNN: This is a picture of my mom and dad when they were married. My mom wanted to be the first black woman in the big bands era, which is before records started, and one of the ways black entertainers were able to make money in the '30s and '40s is they took these big bands all over the country cause of course you didn't have airplanes too much then and they would go on these trains. They would do these concert tours since they didn't have records they had to do concert tours to make money and they would go all over the country. My mom went to a black college called Prairie View, which was a musical school and teaching college. She had her own jazz band in the '30s and '40s when women were suppose to be chaperoned. My mom was sneaking out at night and had her own jazz group and she played the saxophone. Well because she did that the U.S.O., the guys that support the Army when they're in the war, they had clubs all over where men were in the Army. My father's father died when he was 14 and he principle of the segregated black school. My father was this top student, the Valedictorian. So when his father died they made my dad the principle of the black grade school when he was only 17. So when the war broke out, at 19 he got letter saying since you're principle of a school we're gonna put you in Officer Candidate School, but look at him, they didn't know he was black. Okay. So he waited until he got his commission as an officer because at the time it was very hard for African American men to get those commissions. Just like you probably heard about the Tuskegee Airmen.

BROWN: Ah-huh.

NUNN: So my dad was with a group of 500 men who were all the first black officers. And Anthony, almost everyone of them had a college degree or master's degree but this is 60 years ago so these men were ahead of their time. Okay? And they all were officers and so that meant that other people that were regular privates in the army would have to salute my father. But because of the racism, segregation, recrimination back then they made my father go into the infantry and fight on the front lines rather then be an officer where european men would have to salute him. They didn't think people were ready for that then. Okay? So he came back through Houston and he said to my mom ‘they are going to send me to war’. My mom I have the picture in 1944 where she's sitting in the Count Macy Band waiting for her tryout to be the Saxophonist. They were gonna hire her, but my dad says will you marry me instead?

0:21:30.0

NUNN: That’s why this picture means so much, ‘cause she made the choice to give me life. And you can look on their face, my dad looks like I'm going to war but I'm not scared. There's the fear right there in my mom. Look how she's looking off. Okay? My father was 25 my mom was 20. Okay? So she married my dad based on this but she had a lot of boyfriends ‘cause you can tell she's a pretty lady, right? And so the way my dad got my mom was that he would go watch her play her music. Which its unusual for a women to be doing that back then, with her jazz band, all women. Then he found out who her parents were, back then I told you people were chaperoned, ‘cause they did think correctly back then. And so my dad was smart enough to go meet her parents. And meet all her aunts, who were all teachers. And they loved my dad. And my mom would sometimes be gone on dates with somebody and my dad was in the kitchen eating dinner with her parents. So guess who the parents liked instead of all the boyfriends.

BROWN: Your father?

NUNN: Oh yeah. So when she said she was gonna marry him, cause he was so persistent. He refused to say ‘Nuh, I'm going to be here. I might be at your house.’ Sometimes she would come back home with her boyfriends, my dad would still be there talking to her father. Her step-father actually. So he won her over. So when my mom and dad died, I wrote the obituary as their love story. About how my dad saw big red, my mom had redish-black hair. How he saw big red playing the saxophone and when he saw her playing that saxophone he said, ‘That’s the woman for me.’ And is it wasn't for that I wouldn't be here.

BROWN: So like your father was in the army, like during World War II?

NUNN: Yes

BROWN: He was fighting in the Pacific?

NUNN: Yeah he was in the Pacific he was in the Philippines and um he could never tell me what it was like. He said I didn't need to know that and he never told me. So I learned more by watching movies and things and then sometimes when we were watching movies together he would tell me some things. But he could never describe the most brutal, ugly, violent things he saw. He said I just can't talk about them, he never could.

BROWN: So what was your happiest memory of your life?

NUNN: Oh man. The happiest memory in my life was when I was 25 and I met my wife and I was teaching in a school and she was in the same school. Now remember when I told you about my dad, getting my mom, right?

BROWN: Ah-huh

NUNN: And I saw this lady and I was just attracted to her right away and I thought maybe its just infatuation, right? She wouldn't speak to me for a year. She wouldn't look at my face or anything. And I thought maybe this lady just doesn't like me, right? But no, it was something else. I felt something else. Finally one day somebody took a picture of me and I couldn't find it and this lady that I had been wanting to talk to, who wouldn't even look at me, she had the picture in here hand. I was like, ‘Oh do you want my picture?’ ‘Oh, no you can have it back.’ And I realized right there.

BROWN: That she liked you?

NUNN: Yeah. She's just, that scared me, cause she's just, that into me. And we've been married for 31 years.

BROWN: That’s a long time.

NUNN: And we still make it fresh. You gotta work at it. We still make it fresh, we have rules. No swearing at each other, in front of each other. Don't say something later on that you're gonna be really sorry for. Say it under your breath when you walk away or in the other room. Second rule is that you can't go to bed mad. Nobody can go to bed mad cause its not good for you to be mad. Anger causes things to happen inside your body that cause disease. So we never go to bed mad we always talk it out. And the third rule is since you don't go to be mad we hold hands when we go to sleep. And those three things have kept us really close but we work on having are own lives, being independent. But also realizing that when you're in marriage you gotta negotiate, you gotta leave somethings alone and sometimes you talk about things at another time. But the happiest moment, my happiest part of my life is not about any material thing, its about having happiness. So when you ask me about whats the happiest moment of my life I have to tell you it goes all the way back to my childhood. Because what I learned from my parents about the world not being about me and learning about fortune and fame and how fast it passes. I decided if I don't have fortune, if I don't have fame, if I don't have money, there is one thing I am going to have in my life and that’s happiness.

0:26:25.0

NUNN: So at a very young age I promised myself that I was gonna be happy and I wasn't going to settle for a life that wasn't the life I really wanted and I've been very lucky. I'm on my third career and everything I've done I have been passionate about it. I love doing it and so I feel like life is passed me by pretty fast because I've had so much fun.

BROWN: So like. What is your first job?

NUNN: Oh this is a great story. My first job was when I was 15 and I started asking my dad for stuff and so we went to this grocery store. You remember I told you my dad worked at Safeways, right? So he knew a lot of people. So we went to this grocery store and he said, ‘So what do you think of this store?’ ‘Huh, yeah,’ I'm 14 I don't care, you know I wanna get back home and play some baseball. And um, by the way that’s another thing when my dad became the househusband and he taught all day he also did all the grocery shopping. So I went along because my dad taught me how to read labels, whats the best buy for your money, how to do the math and figure out what you are paying for something. So I do that now for my family, my wife. She doesn't have to do the cooking, I can do it. So I split days where sometimes I do it. Anyway, what we, I forgot what we were talking about. Ask me that again.

BROWN: Your first job.

NUNN: Oh my first job. Right. So were in the store and he says, ‘What do you think?’ and ‘Uh yeah, big deal.’ He goes, ‘would you wanna work here?’ ‘Well I can't dad cause I haven't applied. He goes, ‘Well guess what, you start on Monday.’ ‘But I haven't applied.’ ‘It doesn't matter, I've already got you the job.’ So my first job was not one I got it was one my dad made sure I got. [28:13]

BROWN: Were you happy or were you kinda mad at that?

NUNN: Oh I was very happy cause I loved having my own money. I loved it. And when I was in high school I still worked. I started working at 15 and at 16 I worked at a couple of little burger joints right near Jefferson High School. So within six months as I loved to save my money all my friends were asking for money, for lunch money cause they knew I had it in my pocket. I could buy my own school clothes. So you know what they taught me is to be independent. And it was like, ‘maybe I don't need my parents either.’

BROWN: So like when did you move out?

0:28:48.0

NUNN: I moved out at 19 years-old. My family, when I graduated from high school Anthony, this is how much my parents wanted me to realize, you know, your only expected to be here for so long. You know some people who are still at home and they are in their 40s and 50s. That’s a shame. So and they expected me to be out on my own, be successful. So when I graduated from high school my mom and dad gave me luggage with my initials on it. So then I figure then my grandparents will give me something I like, right? My grandparents gave me pots and pans. So you know what they were trying to tell me don't ya?

BROWN: To cook?

NUNN: No. To leave. There's your luggage there's your pots and pans, all you have to do it find your place to live. Okay? And I didn't think it was mean or anything. I kinda was glad, it was like hey they want me to be out on my own. Maybe I'm finally growing up. I like that. I wasn't scared at all. I was taught not to be scared. But I was a real shy person groaning up. Very, very shy. And I didn't lose that shyness totally, until I got involved in high school rallies, sports, student government. I was also on the journalism staff, the school newspaper. I still have some of the articles I wrote in the school newspaper at Jeff. in 1965, I still got copies. See I archive my life just like my mom. She didn't tell me to do it. But that’s what happens when you see it from an adult that you respect.

BROWN: So what’s your favorite part of teaching or being in the…?

0:30:26.0

NUNN: My favorite part of teaching is learning from students. I think teaching is a dialogue. If you're a teacher and you think its only a one-way street, that’s not true. You know knowledge is power, and that power is shared. And so when you teach people you should be learning from your students. If i don't observe you really closely and I don't learn from you, how do I know how to come up with a plan to teach you. So one of the things I really enjoy doing is getting to know students. I would always, and now its, now a lot of schools do it but 30-40 years ago. What I learned from my mom and dad was to visit every parent before school started and that takes a lot of problems out of the window, right? I would never go to the principle about something so cheap as my kid chewing gum, a kid saying something to me in class. I took care of all my own stuff, just like my folks taught me. Okay? And because of that whenever I did send a kid to the principle he knew I was pretty serious cause he never got kids from me. If I knew a kid was gonna be suspended I go down, ‘Hey I've already talked to his mom here's the deal, suspend him. Send him home.’ He'd never be a problem. Never. Okay? That's the first lesson my mom and dad taught me. Meet with every parent before school starts and then when something happens I make the kid call home and I tell 'em, ‘Okay you tell your mom what you did, or your dad.’ I'd pick the parent they were scared the most of. ‘you call them up and if you don't tell them what you said, then I'm going to tell them watt you said. But I'm going to give you the respect to do it on your own cause I trust you as a student. So I'm gonna let you tell 'em what you need to tell 'em, but if you don't tell it right, I'm gonna get on the phone and tell it. And I don't know if you want me to do that.’

BROWN: So you had to meet every student's parents?

NUNN: Had to? No Anthony, I wanted to because I knew that would be the success for teaching. If I had a relationship with all their parents, then their kids couldn't run the okie doke between the parents and the teacher. Because unfortunately nowadays too many people try to blame each other for stuff, try to see it as someone else fault. Look at how your oil executives in this oil spill down in the gulf, look how the other day they acted like little children. These men make 10 million dollars a day and yet they blame each other for the mess. None of them took responsibility. They're children. And that’s what I was taught. I don't care if I have power or not, I was taught to be a responsible person and that's why people like me.

BROWN: Who or what inspires you?

NUNN: Well my parents are my greatest treasures, though they inspired me. You know my grandfather's history, making sure he became the first african-american teacher, the last thing in the world I thought I was gonna do was be a teacher. But actually I was inspired to lose my shyness when I volunteered at a school at 18. And I volunteered and I saw this kid that nobody liked in the room. The teacher told me she didn't like him and then she told me not to work with him because nobody liked him and she hated him. And that immediately got to my spirit because how dare you take that from a child. I don't care if he's mean or what, how dare you denied him the chance to learn to be a real person. How dare you scare his brain like that, but knowing his teacher dislikes him. Cause kids are smarter then we think. They feel things a lot easier then we know. And sometimes as children we're socialized to not understand those feelings. So that young man swore at me when I introduced myself to him and I laughed in his face. And because I laughed in his face he was dumbfounded. He didn't know what to say and I had him. And I knew I had him and I knew right then this is what I should do with my life is be a teacher. And yet I had always told my mom and dad, ‘the last thing I'm ever gonna be is a teacher.’ But the moment I realized I could relate to somebody that nobody else could relate to my passion changed, to become a teacher and helper of other people.

BROWN: So like what kind of music did you like to listen to?

0:34:32.0

NUNN: Oh well I grew up in the, you know, Temptations, Marvin Gaye, Gladys Knight. I love that music.

BROWN: Michael Jackson?

NUNN: Michael Jackson came a little bit later but, you know, we loved seeing the groups that performed live. Cause to be a true musician you have to be able to preform live. Not with an echo chamber, not with multiple voices, not with scratching, any of that stuff. A true performer you can tell how good they are when they perform live. So because of that, I'm not too crazy about rap.

BROWN: Really?

NUNN: I like uplifting rap. Check this out Anthony, when the Black Eye Peas first started they were talking about things like Malcolm X, like Martin Luther King, right? They were talking about uplifting things. But the executives want to make millions dollars told them, ‘Oh no lets start doing the stuff people want to see. Lets start showing your booty and wearing fewer clothes and talk about things that are much more, you know, socially acceptable. Like your relationships with men and women.’ And I don't like that.

UNKNOWN: Did you go to see live music in the Eliot Neighborhood?

0:35:43.0

NUNN: Yes, when we were growing up. You know that’s a good question because when we were growing up a lot of, Anthony, every black man I knew had a job and a second job. Every one of them. Many of those men were musicians so when I told you they built the Coliseum a lot of the black neighborhood was made to leave and there were probably about four or five jazz clubs down there. So a lot of people I knew growing up played music through their own little jazz club that they would own. And they would buy the building and start their club. So I knew a lot of those people and I grew up with 'em. Most of 'em went from having two jobs to going back to school to have a professional career. So we had a lot of music around, a lot of concerts, as I told you my grandfather trained a lot of kids to get into music in Portland in the '60s. So many of your bands were groups that had actually played for my grandfather that I saw when I was a child. So to me, I love music. Now that I'm a little bit older I like to be more relaxed cause I don't want to get disease in my body. So sometimes, one of the things I learned was yoga. Another thing was how to meditate, how to make your body settle down and how to think about nothing else but keeping your body in tune. And also part of that is I listen to classical music that I like. Not any classical music but classical music that I like. But I still like some rap. I like Jason Derulo. I even watch Jason, what is it, Bieber.

BROWN: Justin Bieber?

NUNN: Justin Bieber. Yeah I watched him yesterday. I like some of that stuff, okay? I like some of it. But I don't like the gangster-type rap cause its disrespectful to women, its disrespectful to the race. I know its out there. Why do all these executives want you to see that stuff when they could be making a movie about the man who made the light bulb with Thomas Edison, Louis Latimer. Why doesn't Denzel do a movie about that? Why doesn't Oprah spend her millions to make a movie about some of the first black inventors, who invented things like light-rail troller, who invented the third rail that subways go on, who invented the process to transfer blood, which is why we have the red cross, Charles Drew. Why aren't there movies about that? And yet we can see movies about gangs right away. Why is it that Denzel had to his Academy Award from a movie about a bad cop doing bad things, when he should have won it for Malcolm X? So see those are questions that, what it tells you is that if you want things to change you better do something locally to help it change. If you don't do any, shut your mouth and take what happens. That means you got to vote Anthony.

BROWN: Well I don't really know because-

NUNN: If you don't vote the people that represent you, don't know you.

BROWN: Well like vote on what?

NUNN: Anything. Your state representative to the legislature.

BROWN: Oh like Barrack Obama and stuff?

NUNN: That’s more national, right? I'd expect you to vote for that too. You gotta start voting locally so that people in your local community get the things that you want in your community. If you don't vote somebody else is gonna decide for ya. So here's your experience right now when you're in school. Make sure you vote for the person that should be student body president. Oh you're student body president?

BROWN: Well I want to be.

NUNN: I love that.

BROWN: Well they did it last year, like cause I wasn't old enough, cause its only like 7th and 8th graders. Well now I'm in 7th grade, they kind of stopped it so like it kinda cut the opportunity off.

NUNN: Yeah unfortunately that’s what happens now when we don't have a lot of money and a bad economy but you know there is also when things are bad like when I grew up with my folks things weren't very good, sometimes we didn't have a lot of opportunities. But I grew up with the fact that, you know, racism will never be your excuse. The chance not to succeed will never be your excuse. Cause Anthony as we get older we have a choice, we can use any excuse, I'm fat, I'm tall, I'm skinny, I'm small, I'm black, I'm white, whatever the excuse. How long in our lives do we use those excuses? Oh my excuse to my mom and dad, ‘Oh if you guys would have given me more confidence maybe I could have done more in life,’ if I was 24 right? And they said, ‘I'll tell you what. When you have your family do all the things for your family that we didn't do for you. All the ways we should have raised you, you do those for your kids and then come back and talk to me.’ They were right. But they gave me the chance to give a voice. So that’s one of the things I did for students. I always gave them a chance to express themselves and give themselves a voice. Okay? I would take students that somebody would say, ‘Oh man, that kid is bad he should never be in the hallway alone,’ and I'd make him take the attendance card down to the office alone. And then pretty soon the people in the office are like, ‘Why'd you let him come down here?’ ‘Did he do anything wrong?’ ‘No. But he shouldn't be doing these things because he's too unresponsible.’ ‘I made him responsible.’ And that’s how you change people. You don't change people by persecuting them. You change people by giving them opportunities. Which is what I do with the program I do now in my third career, which is called Project Clean Slate. I help people get their driver license back but they have to go through a three month program with me. I help them pay off old tickets and fines. But, I am your court advocate and I am the person who creates a document portfolio. If you don't have your documentation, nobody wants to hear you run your mouth. So either you have documents or you sit down and shut up.

BROWN: So like talking about school and stuff, what school did you teach at?

0:41:25.0

NUNN: My first school was Rose City Park. I coached basketball at Adams High School under Milt Adams, who was a great coach, and then went on to Jeff. and won some city titles, at Jefferson and a state title. I also worked at Tubman, Whitaker, at Rigler in North-East Portland, I am a national phonics teacher. So I can teach anybody to read, I don't care what language you speak I can teach you to read and know English within a year.

BROWN: Really?

NUNN: Read it, know it, write it, spell it. It’s a phonetic program, it’s fantastic. So I have that skill that I was given and I learned that skill because since my mom is a musician and my dad was a math teacher and a science person, my brain competes, the left and the right side competes. And because of that I can do things right-handed, left-handed. When my mom saw I was left-handed she helped me learn the musical scale cause she thought that might transfer to a reading problem and she was right. When I learned the musical scale I realized if I can learn the musical scale, I can learn to read. She gave me confidence.

UNKNOWN: We have time for one more question.

BROWN: Okay. So like how has the neighborhood changed in your point of view?

NUNN: Well the neighborhood is much more integrated now. There is much less racism in Portland. The police do better at communicating. I know we still have problems but the police do a lot better than the used to. Because I know many men that got roughed up by the police just because of their color. Some people may not think that that’s changed, but I have seen it change. I've been part of that change six of my ex-students are police officers.

BROWN: Really

0:43:11.0

NUNN: Yes. Yes and one of them works with me in Clean Slate to talk to people about understanding the, what the language is of a police stop and he does it for free, Anthony. He does it out of his heart not because he expects a check. And the people that expected a check to do things for other people in my program. They are not working in my program anymore. I only want people with passion and desire, who wanna help people because its right not because they expect a check. And then they might end up getting some business out of it.

BROWN: That’s good.

NUNN: So what do you wanna do with your life?

BROWN: Well I wanna be a pilot.

NUNN: Do you really?

BROWN: Yeah.

NUNN: So do you like math?

BROWN: Ah-huh.

NUNN: Do you like science?

BROWN: Yep and physics.

NUNN: So what’s gonna be your alternate, what’s Plan B? If your not a pilot, your gonna do what? Gotta have a Plan B, Anthony. Gotta have a Plan B and Plan C. Do not limit your life by thinking you can only do a couple things. Expand it by taking every opportunity you can in school. Learn everything you can about what other people do. When you have a chance to do internships, do it. When you have a chance to learn from some adult in a program through school, do it. The more experience you have, the more knowledge you'll have about many things you'll want to do. Don't limit yourself by only thinking you'll do one thing. But I'm glad to hear you say pilot because you know what? Sports are a small part of people's life and I was a coach and won some of the first city titles for Grant High School for soccer. But I always told my students, ‘You are not here to be an athlete. I'm not here to make you a pro. In fact none of you are gonna get the chance to be a pro.’ In fact in my years of teaching only Damon Stoudamire and Terrell Brandon, who I knew and my dad taught Damon Stoudamire.

BROWN: Terrell Brandon, that’s my auntie's boyfriend.

NUNN: Really? I was at Tubman when Tarrell was a student there. Those are the two young men who became professional athletes. The other one is probably one of the greatest basketball players in the women's pro league and that’s Cindy Brown. So out of all the years I taught, only three people became professional athletes. So I wanted kids to know that no you are not going to be a pro. That’s what my daddy dis to me when I said I wanna play baseball. He said, ‘No your going to get an education.’ And he just laid it out to me real early. ‘You're not going to be an athlete, you're going to get your education.’ And when you look at athletes, if you get hurt and your career is over, which can happen in a heart-beat, then what do you have to plan on? So you gotta have a Plan B. And if you don't have an education to back it up, you no longer have those millions of dollars in your pocket cause you're hurt. They aren't going to pay you anymore. So you better have a plan b to back you up, which is an education. In fact today if I looked at the world today. I don't think I'd go into education today cause I'd want to start my own business. I think I would become an electrician. Because I could get paid $19 to go to trade school, which is like college. When I come out I'm going to make $36 an hour which is more than I made as a teacher with all the degrees I have. And then by the time I'm 40, my friends have trade skills, we can start are own business. We can start a whole contraction business. we can bid on the contracts. In Portland we can make millions of dollars. that’s what I'd do.

BROWN: Thank you for your time.

NUNN: Oh I loved it Anthony. Good luck to you.